Physio+10 explores the journeys of trailblazing Physiotherapists and we kick off 2023 in conversation with Randall Cooper. Randall is known to many as a Specialist Sports Physiotherapist with a passion for ACL rehab, to others as the creator of PreMax and more recently as an educator and podcaster.
In our conversation Randall shares four key business tips;
Randall explains why he regrets attending a Level 2 Sports Physiotherapy course and what the life lesson was that he learnt from the experience.
Plus, his best investment for under $200 and his thoughts on how we can create a more stable profession with less practitioner churn and more appropriate remuneration. So many takeaways!
You can watch our conversation on YouTube.
Thanks for listening!
Randall is a Fellow of the Australian College of Physiotherapists, Adjunct Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Sport and Exercise Medicine Research Centre, co-Author of the world’s most read sports medicine text book Clinical Sports Medicine, and regularly delivers keynote presentations at sports medical conferences around the world.Randall’s key area of expertise is the role of skin in sport. After noticing that the creams and lotions he used on his elite athletes were hampering their performance, he decided to look into what he could do to change the game. He conducted research into the area, gathered insights from his athletes and made himself an expert in the science of skincare in sport. He founded Premax in 2006, a brand now used by elite athletes and sporting clubs around the world. Premax has truly cemented itself as being synonymous with elite athletic performance.
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This is your fortnightly installment where I interview a trailblazing physiotherapist that has shaped the profession we're journey, knowledge and insights. You gain the opportunity to plan and guide your own professional journey. My name is Doug Carey, and welcome to Physio Plus 10. Welcome, 2023 past and previous listeners to Physio plus 10, um, special guest to kick off this year for our first podcast as Randall Cooper. Welcome Randall to Physio plus 10. Good day, Doug. Um, thanks so much for having me on your podcast. Absolutely pleasure. Hey, look, um, we don't go through a big intro on the person because the idea is that we learn about you as we go along. So if we could just sort of start with a bit of background about where you grew up and what your early schooling involved. Yeah, well, um, I'm the son of a motor mechanic and a, and a school teacher. Um, and, uh, the great thing about kind of like, I had a terrific upbringing and, um, you know, the one thing I think I learned from my parents is they, they had their own motor repair workshops. So dad basically started his own mechanic and I learned business. I learned that how hard it is to, to to essentially to build it, uh, to keep staff, um, to, you know, make sure it was profitable, all that kind of stuff. I was, I was there. I saw a Watson all, and I think that, that, um, really, you know, set the tone probably for part of my career and my journey. So I'm sure we'll talk a bit this as we go on. I, um, I'm one of two boys. Um, my brother's kind of in the auction industry, so Um, and I'm the eldest, um, child there. So, uh, I grew up in Melbourne. I've, uh, I had a terrific private school music cause one, one of my things, but I love sport as well, and that's one of the things that kinda led me to physiotherapy. Well, with that upground that, I mean, that brings two things to mind. One is just recently chatting with Paul Wright and I was asking him the question like, with regards to reception and hiring staff, what's the number one thing that his mastermind group looks at? And I sort of said as an education, as an experience, he said, no, actually we found out that it's people that have grown up in a small business environment. They're the ones that understand the importance of engaging with their client with, you know, as a receptionist or as a physio. And I thought you've just hit the nail on the head there as well. Like, to be successful, you almost need to have that understanding of what small business means when it comes to, um, helping your patients or helping your caseload or building a business. So that's, that's kind of interesting, you, you brought that up as well. Hey, um, I was gonna ask, given that you don't have a health background in your family, where did physio come in for you? Uh, well, I've got a, you know, I've got a quite an interesting story. Um, what led me to physio, and I won't go for too long, but I had a, I had a very difficult year when I was 16. I, um, I was a keen snow scare and, um, I was up at a training camp, um, at Threadbow in New South Wales. And I, and I blew my knee. I jumped off this rock and landed awkwardly and I, I did my ACL and I did my m c at the same time. And this is back in the 1990s. Um, so I needed a, like an old school ACL reconstruction. Um, so I was like six weeks non-weightbearing limited motion cast. Um, it took me, you know, a long time to rehabilitate from that. And, uh, that was the first bit. Uh, the second bit was, um, that was I think in July. And then in September I started to have anesthesia, paraesthesia, weakness, lethargy, kind of, um, all over my body. Um, and the diagnosis was, uh, mbar a syndrome. So I was three months post-op, uh, from acl, I had syndrome. I found myself in, in intensive care, um, in Austin Hospital, almost about to, um, get intubated. Um, and I spent three or four weeks kind of in, in the hospital. And then it took me probably about 12 months to kind of completely rehabilitate, um, from both injuries concurrently up until that point. Like I had no idea what I wanted to do. I remember even like when I was in year 10, I was trying to convince my parents that I wanted to quit school and to go and be a chef. And fortunately they kind of talked me outta that. Um, nothing wrong with being a chef, but, uh, it, it definitely was not my calling <laugh> now that I'm a bit older. But, uh, it totally opened my eyes. This experience was actually a positive in my life and it totally opened my, um, eyes up to medicine, to, um, physio, to health, to fitness. And um, it gave me the, like, the kick up the bum that I needed to, to actually really study hard cuz my, my grades and the feedback at school for me was always capable boy could apply himself more. And, you know, when I, when I kind of got back to school after the, um, uh, the A C l and also the GI bar syndrome, I was just motivated. So physio was a thing that I wanted to do. I wanted to make an impact on people's lives like those health professionals did to me. It really, um, affected me deeply. And even today, like I still think it's one of the big driving forces of why I do what I do today. So you had that major inflection point very early on in your life then? It was, you know, and in some ways I'm, I'm glad that I did. And you know, I've carved out a, um, you know, I'm pretty proud of the, like my physio career I've done, I've spent a lot of it in sport and it's uncanny that, you know, like I've, I've seen a lot of high level athletes, you know, Olympic Olympic champions, a f l footballers, et cetera. The ones who make it, usually not all of them that, you know, like a lot of them have to deal with something fairly you know, to, to kind of get the grit and the, and the um, uh, and the drive, you know, to achieve great things. Not everyone has to do that, but you'll find if you dig into people's stories enough, usually that's there, there. So like you said, like I was fortunate to have that at the age of 16 and um, you know, the fire's still burning mate. Yeah. When you say that, being a West Coast supporter over here makes me think of Chris Jarden, how he had his sort of bilateral shoulders, occasions and he got picked up by the West coast fairly cheaply so to speak, but, you know, he had some grit and determination to And with appropriate guidance and rehab, you know, obviously went on to have a very successful football well. Which, um, physio course did you choose and like, how'd you find study? So when I was, uh, when I applied for physio in Melbourne at the, at this time, like there are only two physio courses, there was the one offered by, well actually I, I, I got entry into Lincoln, if you remember it. That sound very old now. That changed into Latrobe. So that was the Lincoln course was like the original physio course all the way back to the sixties or something, um, in Melbourne. And it was only a couple of years before I started Melbourne University kind of, um, opened up their, their course as well. So there's Melbourne and Latrobe and um, we were actually down the road from each other, like Lincoln in these days was in Carlton, Melbourne University is just up the road as well. So we all knew each other. We actually studied anatomy together. So in a lot of ways it was kind of like one big class, but it's different now. Like in Melbourne I think there's at least 10 physio courses. So it's a, it's an interesting choice and challenge for, you know, um, people who wanna study, study physios these days. But I, I loved university. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So you, it was, it was a four year degree. Like we had gone from the diploma to the degree at this stage. It was a four year, uh, bachelor of physio and it was at the Lincoln or ended up being Latrobe or Lincoln Institute of Health Sciences. And so it was a small kind of building in, in Melbourne, in Carlton. And we had physio, occupational therapy, speech pathology, podiatry, I think and the bizarre one, medical records administration. And I think, uh, all the, um, all the courses had at least 80% female to male ratios. So it was a wonderful, um, to, to kind of study in that environment. I, I kind of, I, I jokingly say it was, it was almost like, uh, high school with alcohol, um, because it was still, uh, close and everyone kind of knew each other. Um, every, you know, like all the balls and stuff were a lot of fun. So I got a lot outta the academic side, but I also got a lot outta the social side as well. Yeah, no, that's pretty special. Those, Hey, and when you were doing your study, was, was there any particular lecturer or mentor that sort of, I mean, you said you had this experience with Gilbar and also the a c injury, but is it at this point you are starting to realize that sports is the direction you're heading? Or is there a person that influenced you in that direction? No, at this point in time, like, cuz I had, you know, uh, the, it was an interesting kind of journey into physio, as I said. And like the, the physio that I experienced was, was a private practice, um, because of my a c l like initially I went into private practice and did the routine kind of, well, back in those days it was the, it was the, um, it was the electrotherapy, roundabout <laugh>, but it's changed a little bit now. But, um, I went through that, but when I, when I kind of had neurological condition, uh, I was very much in hospital physio or the neuro, and then I went to, um, outpatients at a rehabilitation facility. So I thought it was actually really quite unique that I'd been exposed to so many areas of physio before I got in. Um, and when I kind of, you know, started to study because I'd had such, and it was recently recent experience, like I was 16, 17 when all this happened, then I was 18 by the time I started studying. So I just lapped it up like as I just wanted to learn as much as I could. I found it was probably my favorite subject was anatomy. And for those that, um, around about my, uh, age who studied, um, medicine or, um, physio at Melbourne around that time there's an anatomy professor called Chris Briggs. And like Chris just was awesome. Like, I just loved anatomy, I loved Chris, I just couldn't learn enough from that guy. Um, he didn't really influence like where I went clinically, but you know, I feel like I've still got a good understanding anatomy because of like his personality and the topic combined. Yeah. And when you finished, like was there a particular, I'm trying to think about what I remembered. I remember graduating, but for you, what did it mean? Actually getting that certificate in hand and, and graduating as a physiotherapist? Uh, it was very satisfying. You know, that's something that everyone dreams of when you're going through your studies that, you know, like getting your qualifications is, is really important. It did feel a little surreal. I think also, I, I remember two bits. It was the, no, actually three, three parts of it, thinking back, the, the, the first one was the realization that you passed, so you got through that last exam and it's like, okay, I've done it. The second one was, um, actually then registering as a physio and then with a r and then this, you know, the certificate coming back with your number on it, it's like, I'm, I'm good to go. Like, uh, this is really fun and really cool. And then the third one obviously is kind of getting that first job and, um, I suppose in some ways I found the transition not easy, but maybe a touch easier than others. Um, because I did have that interest in sports. Um, in, um, undergraduate, um, during undergrad at graduate studies I worked fairly hard as a sports trainer and some of the, like the football teams that I work with, I was the only guy there. So every single player used to come to me with their injuries, uh, what to do. And, uh, as you know, know like nothing beats experience. And I, I, I felt that by the time I kind of got, um, into my first job, it's like, alright, I've been here, done that. I've got the certificate now, but I just need to up my game a little bit. I've got a little bit more time. It's, I've gotta be a little bit more professional. But at the same time, like I, I've, I've felt like I've done this before. So the transition was, was okay. Yeah. And I think that speaks to a lot, even for new grads, thinking about that now or going into graduation, if you do a say a sports medicine level one trainer course and you start providing your services as you're going through, then the transition, when you actually move in a prior practice and you start seeing patients one-on-one is, is not such a big transition. The room changes a bit, but the professionalism changes, but the actual meet and the greet and the professional sort of standards, I think helps a lot when you've had a lot of patient contact before you actually become a full fully fledged therapist. Yeah, no, I agree with that. And um, I, I had a, it was, it was a very interesting kind of first job that I got because one of the physio that actually I kind of worked for in inverted commerce, um, as a sports trainer, he was the one who kind of was the team physio for the, for these football teams, um, generally that I worked with in my third and fourth years in, um, in my studies. When I, when I graduated, like, which was November or something like that, I think I got my, you know, my a certificate in on in December and he said, I want to go away for, uh, two weeks of, uh, holiday over Christmas. Can you please run the practice <laugh>? Yeah. I can see where this is going.<Laugh>. And it's like, you're kidding me, aren't you? Like you, I've just, I've literally, the ink still drying. I'm like my certificate and not only do you want me to see your full caseload of patients, like you actually want me to do the books, do the phones, all this kind of stuff. And this isn't out the back of whoop book where you get four patients a day. This was in Brighton, in Melbourne, you know, so, you know, it was a busy clinic. Um, it was only a small clinic. There's only a few practitioners, but I was the only person there. So going back to what we talked about, about small business like this, not only from a clinical perspective, but from a business perspective was an absolute baptism by fire. And geez, I slept well for those two weeks. Every single night I was exhausted. Um, but after that, like obviously, you know, like you, you either, uh, it either kills you or it makes you stronger, and I think it made me stronger. So, um, yeah, <laugh>. Okay. So going forward, you graduated your ins dried, you've had your baptism of fire. What were the sort of things that you, what either jobs did you take on in the next few years? And particularly were these conscious decisions or did you tend to just move from a job to a job for other reasons? No, I, you know, it was an interesting first two years, um, because I felt that eventually I would wind up in private practice and eventually I'd wind up in sports, but I also felt that I needed to get some more grounding and be part of a bigger organization and learn more about the medical system and work in the hospital system for a while. So I worked for the private practice for the first three or four months. I actually took my time to kind of, you know, wait for all those new grad jobs to kind of go. And then, uh, an opportunity came up at a rehabilitation hospital, um, out in the southeast of Melbourne. Um, and that was a full-time job. So I took that, uh, I took that, uh, and there was a rotation kind of through the acute hospital system. I continued to work at the private practice Monday, Wednesday, Friday nights from five to eight. And then I worked, um, also in the private practice from nine to 12. And then, um, covered a football game in the afternoon as well. So you can probably pick up that I was pretty motivated new grad. Um, and it was good, you know, like it was, I, again, I was busy. I actually was really nice to start earning money, and I thought it also would give me the opportunity to really see if truly it was that I wanted to kind of go into sports. And I think that it, it was a really good process because what happened was that I spent about nine to 12 months working in the hospital. And then after about, uh, six or nine months, the hospital actually had a research unit, um, that specialized in, um, gate disorders of, uh, neurological conditions, particularly Parkinson's and Huntington's disease, and was headed up by Meg Morris, so I'm sure a lot of he, um, people would know and under, uh, know of Meg. So Meg approached me and said, listen, I need some research help. Um, would you like, I'll pay you more than like what you're getting paid kind of in the hospital. Would you like to come and work for me half of your hours? And I said, well, this is just a great opportunity. So I did, and I, I worked in this research facility, I conducted studies, I shadowed Meg, um, Meg is a big influence on my early career. And after about, uh, six to nine months of doing that, Meg came to me and, um, said, would you like to go to do a PhD, kind of like on some of these topics? I can offer you a, essentially like a very unique opportunity where I'll pay you, um, to, and you can stay on the same salary that you are at the moment, but you can combine it with doing a PhD and, um, um, you'll come out as a doctor and a specialist in neurological physio. And I was doing this as well as the private practice stuff as I was speaking about before. So it was a big fork in the road for me. And I think that, you know, we, we kind of just before we started, we were talking about these, you know, these, you know, progressions kind of like for younger physios. And it really was like my first major decision because I've felt that that neurological research opportunity was significant. Um, Meg was awesome. She still is, you know, like she was very inspirational, but you know, the question was was, is that really where my heart lies? Is that really what I want to do with my career? And I ended up saying no to Meg to end to the, uh, to doing the PhD for free, basically. And I decided to double down and to go and, and, and focus my, um, energy on, on being the best sports physio I could, but like my appetite was also where, um, for doing research and making a difference there. So I enrolled to do a master's of research, um, at Latrobe University. And, um, there might, uh, be no surprise to anyone that I picked ACL rehab as the, as the topic that I wanted to do. And, um, yeah, I designed and started and, and did some studies on a c l rehab. So it's interesting how these things kind of play out, but yeah, that fork in the road was a, was another great, um, kinda learning experience for, for me and my career. Yeah. Well as you know, as I said, it made you come to a conscious decision, like you had to sit down and ponder what you wanted to do and then act on that rather than perhaps drifting along from one thing to the next. Yeah. Was that when you did your masters, like you said, research, but you did it also in sports, didn't you? Or was that a, a separate qualification you came to? No, I, I actually didn't do, uh, a, um, the traditional kind of masters of sports physiotherapy. I did a master's of physiotherapy and research, and I did that, um, I did, uh, two, I did two or three studies. Um, it was actually a real, it was actually a really Um, and I remember when I kind of handed my thesis, which was about 30,000 words long, um, that the, my two, um, reviewer said this, this, this is a PhD quality. So I, I didn't go as far as you mate, so I haven't, I didn't, I didn't get the, I didn't, I haven't got the PhD and, um, but that's fine. Um, but yeah, and, and since then, like I've, I've, I've had an interest in research, but the interesting thing it did was, and this is I think something that would be good to talk about with you and your audience today is that it, this research made me unique. Um, I wasn't, I didn't kind of, um, you know, just have the same qualification as everyone else and, you know, a good reputation. I had a unique degree in a niche area, and I, over al not quite overnight, I became the, you know, the a c L guy. And what happens is that when, when I did, what happened, when, when I did this and I started doing the research and I did my first study and, you know, I started to network with the orthopedic surgeons, Peter Brookner and Karen Kahn, um, cuz I worked at Peter's clinic, said, we're about to do the second edition of clinical sports medicine, would you like to write the chapter on ACL rehab? And it's like, I didn't feel ready. It's like, but you don't, you don't say no to these opportunities. So I said, yeah, I'm ready. Like I'll do it. Just tell me how many words you want me to write <laugh>. So, so I did. Um, and the combination of kind of having that kudos and then, um, uh, and writing the chapter in that very famous, you know, text textbook, um, you know, literally set my career up for the next 20 or 30 years because I just became the, the guy who, who kind of was the expert, um, in a c l rehab didn't feel like I'd earned it. But at the same time, like I got that kudos and, um, yeah, you know, like I I, I've never had problems filling my patient list, you know, from that point onwards. Yeah. So would you say though that it actually made you, or you was your client list pretty much then 90% acls? Is that sort of what you then saw? Uh, at, at that point? It did. Um, you know, like I, I got to probably once I got to probably about 30, so I was about eight years out, I'd finished my degree, sorry, I'd finished my master's degree. I, I think that probably eight outta 10 patients were acls. And I got to the point that, you know, like when I saw a wrist, a hand and I'd just put my, I put the white flag up them, <laugh> <laugh>, just say, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm not gonna charge you for this. Uh, you know. I'm not sure if I know what I'm doing here.<Laugh>. Yeah. Oh, that's good. Um, I guess the next progression, and I'm not sure if we're gonna jump around a bit, but you said you did your masters in, in, in the research focus, then progressed on and doing your specialization and, and that's another huge step clinically and psychologically challenging as far as commitment to a process. Why did you decide you needed to do that, given that you were literally the a c o guru of Melbourne? I, I, I did it like, um, like in the really early days of specialization, and I was another, um, person that I was kind of fortunate enough to work with and come across was Henry Swank. And, uh, Henry would be known well in the sports physio kind, uh, world. And he, he worked at Olympic Park where I did, at the time, Henry was the first person in Victoria to become a specialist. Sports, physio sports and exercise physio now. Um, and I remember he just, he's, he's got a very dry kind of, um, uh, persona and terrific man, but I, he just, he just bailed me up in the clinic one day and he said, Randall, you should do specialization, you'll romp it in. And I said, oh. He goes, well, there's a grandfather clause at the moment. Like, um, there's an exam in like six months. If you study hard, I'll help you, um, to train you up and, and do the program. I think you'll pass. So I thought about it for, I thought about it for, um, a few days and it's like, okay, I'll go for it. And one of the things that kind of got me there was just how quick it was. You know, now it's a like a two year fellowship training oh, I may as well, I've got nothing to lose. I did actually, cuz I think the, the exam fees were like $3,000 or something like that. So it's like, if I stuff this up, you know, my wife won't be happy about that. But I remember there's only, there's only million one other candidate, and that was, uh, Leanne Raff. And so we went together to be the second and third kind of specialist sports physios in Victoria. And one of my vivid memories was that, um, it's like, okay, the way we're gonna get this, Henry said, the way we're gonna get started is, is we are just gonna start with a live patient. Randall, you are first, and like, I'm gonna assess you, um, start to finish. I'm not gonna say anything. You just got a live patient, you gotta assess them treatment and give them some stuff to do. So I did that, took about 45 minutes, half an hour. And his comment was at the end was, that's a great start because it couldn't get any worse. We could, we can only get better from here. And it's like, I've got so long, so far to go here. And it was a massive thing. I, I thought it would kind of be something that I just kind of like, yeah, okay, they'll just do it. But it ended up being a lot of study, a lot of work. Um, but I got over the line and, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm pleased and proud that I did. Yeah, no, I think it's a, it is a massive challenge and, and like you sort of said, the make will break you these things, so it's a good thing. Now you just slipped in there. You were married at this stage and your wife was gonna, I didn't, I don't think you said cut your balls off, but it was close to it.<laugh> how did you meet your wife when? So, uh, my wife and I met, um, one of the sports that I, um, uh, was very passionate about and wanted to work in was the sport of skiing. Um, and actually I forgot to kind of drop this in, um, before, but during that time when I was working, um, at the rehab hospital, also in the private practice, um, and with the football teams was that I also went and got myself a position up at Mount Bullah, um, at the snow fields in, in Melbourne or in Victoria, sorry. Um, I think I was two years out maybe it was my third year out. And I ran the physio clinic up there. Um, and uh, that was great experience as well. You got as many injuries from the pub as you did from skiing. People were just slipping over and they've had too many. So I actually, uh, met my wife up there. She came up, she was from Perth, um, she came over, um, and moved to Melbourne. Uh, she had a bunch of friends and girlfriends that she went up to Mount Bula for opening weekend. Uh, this is the second year that I worked up there, not the first year. And we were introduced through friends. Um, she didn't really like me to start with. She thought that I was quite obnoxious. And then, then, um, and then interestingly then she came to see me the, the following day at, at the practice. And, uh, it's, I remember actually going back to uni days, they, um, a couple of lectures said, son Kenny, how many physios married their patients? And, uh, I, I have to say that I, I, um, I, I adhere to that philosophy as well, <laugh>. So we met and uh, we ended up getting married. Oh, that's cool. Hey, look, I'm just changing gears a little bit. I'm guessing what started as site was a site house. So for you has grown into a fully fledged business. And I'm talking here about Prem Max. How did it start? So Prem Max started, uh, it was all the way back in 2006. And I suppose, you know, just kind of backstepping just really briefly, like when I, when I kind of, you know, made that decision to, um, be a sports physio and a specialized in these, um, but I was a specialty in these, it wasn't a hundred percent specialty in these, um, I decided that, um, I wanted to go to, uh, Olympic games and also work with an AFL team. So I did, I got those jobs. I, I worked with Hawthorne, um, I went to the Winter Olympics, um, with the Australian, um, uh, Olympic team, winter Olympic team. And what I noticed was, was that, um, you know, it's, there's a lot of manual therapy back then. And particularly kind of like in sport when you're traveling and working with teams as the, as the physio like, and you're doing, you've got a lot of hats. Your, your psychologist, your massage therapist, your occasional doctor, uh, your counselor, and your physio as well. And invariably, I just got so many complaints about from, from the athletes about this, just these creams that you are using on me are greasy. I don't like them. They, they don't, they don't feel nice. Um, why don't you actually, can I actually get my treatment before the game, like an hour before it so I can go and shower to get that stuff off me before I go and, um, before I go and play or try. And, and the other thing I picked up was that also working kind of in the clinical environment at Olympic Park where I worked was just down the road from our city, from our C B D. So we get a lot of office workers, um, who are into their sport would come down and get treatment at lunchtime and stuff. And they would actually say something really similar that they would, you know, they'd say, thanks so much for your treatment, but like, I, I just, can you get that cream off? Like, is there a shower or something like, cause I've, I, I don't wanna put my suit back on to kind of go back up to, to the office. I feel terrible. So, you know, I, I went home and actually spoke to my wife about it and, and um, said, there's something here. Like everyone just keeps complaining about these oils and creams that we use, and there's no other alternatives. They're, they're cheap and nasty. And like she said, uh, why wasn't have to be that way? Like, I love my moisturizer, I love my hand cream. Like skincare can be terrific. Like why don't you do something great? So we discussed it over a few weeks and she had some Qantas shares that were tanking and it was like, I might have been 10 grand or 15 grand or something that she had in those. And Jane said like, why don't I, I wanna invest in you. Why don't we, why don't you do this? Why don't you actually start a couple of massage creams and maybe what we can do, it might take us on a holiday Tous here, or a Bunbury in Margaret River. And um, and I said, okay, I'm gonna go for it. Because as much as, as much as um, you know, like I was thoroughly kind of enjoying being a physio and elite sport because that's really what I wanted to do. Probably, you know, from my upbringing, I had this little entrepreneurials, you know, business itch that I'd, I'd like to actually kind of create something as well. And I played, I toyed with the idea here of, you know, buying shares into the clinic or do I, you know, try and start my own clinic and, you know, and then this came along, it's like, okay, I can, I can have my cake and eat it too. I can um, still work in elite sport. I can do this as a side hustle. Maybe if it earns me 30 or$40,000 a year, what a win. Like, unbelievable. So that's where it started. It started off just with two massage creams, um, no marketing budget. All we did was basically got, um, I engaged two wholesalers. Um, I gave them a bunch of product to start sampling out with clinics and that was the start of it. And you know, here I am like 15 years later and it's much bigger than that now. So it's, it's been a great journey. Yeah. Now with any sort of business like that, like is it, there's a point in time where it goes side hustle, stay side hustle, side hustle gets bigger. Like again, we use this word inflection. What was the inflection point for you to suddenly go from two products and not staying with two, but going to saying obviously and significantly bigger first started it? So it grew over about seven or eight years. It just organically kind of grew. Um, it went from two products and we went up to five and they're all, um, products for health, professional mass massage, physios, osteos, choros, et cetera. Just massage screens and lotions basically. And there's a couple of things that happened. The, the first one was, was that the products started to travel overseas. So a lot of, particularly the physios who would get postings with Premier League teams or N B A teams or sometimes are, you know, teams in Asia, they would either take premix with them or we'd get an email or a call saying, we can't find anything like your stuff in the UK or the US or whatever, can you please send those creams over? Budget is not an issue. We'll pay whatever you wanna pass them buy. And it's like, wow, that's really interesting. And then the second thing was, um, we then also concurrently got feedback from athletes. Cause the athletes would say, we love actually getting treated with your creams cuz it was solving the problem that they were complaining about, you know, that I spoke about a couple of minutes ago. But why don't you do something for us? Like we can't find a sunscreen that, you know, doesn't sting our eyes. And you know, like the ch anti chafe farms out there, they don't work properly. And um, you know, we got, we got bunch of these, so I've got to the point it's, and the, these two pieces of feedback coming back. And then I also, you know, as I kind of got more experience in business and and business opportunity, I looked at the opportunity and, and I kind of saw essentially white space in front of this brand because when I opened up the, you know, the medical cabinet like we had one brand of tape, like it was a Alaska place in Luco and that was all there was. But then on the other part of the cabinet was, um, was all these creams and lotions and oils and there's literally 50 different companies. And it's like, why doesn't someone own that? Why can't there be one brand that does that really well and actually lead and define, you know, skincare and gels and creams and lotions for sports people. So I actually, I I, I sat down, uh, this is about 2016, 2017 with Peter Brookner, uh, who's a long-term friend, colleague, mentor. Um, he'd just come back from his stint, uh, working at Liverpool, uh, football club. And I said, I, I just told him about that situation and I said, what do, what, what do you think I should do? And he said, um, I think you should go for it, mate. And um, if you, if you want, um, an investor, I'm happy to be your first ever investor. So, um, Peter, uh, put in some money into the business and it was, it was at that point that, that was a, a huge point in my professional life. It's like, uh, I still consider myself very much a specialist sports but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pivot to becoming a business guy now. And, um, I did it, you know, I've kind of been on the rollercoaster since. So yeah, it was, it was, it was a, it was an amazing turn of events and, um, um, yeah, but not one that I regret by any stretch. It's been a terrific journey. Yeah. And look for people that have a business itch or they've got an idea that they think has capacity to grow, that's a bit of a broad question, but do you have any bits of advice that you'd give them to consider when they step off into that direction? Yeah, I think so. I think that particularly for physios, like I've, I've actually, I, you know, cuz I pay attention to the businesses that other physios do, and you know, I've, I've seen a few succeed and I've seen a lot fail. Um, and I suppose the, for anyone that's thinking about this, you know, I've, I've got a few pieces of advice. The first one is, um, keep it small, like the start, like kind of just, it's, it's no different to kind of the way that sometimes you'll treat. Like sometimes you just gotta test something, try something out, reassess, you know, and then if it works, then okay, you can start to scale it up and do it more. And I suppose, you know, that was what I learned with pre max is I started small. Yes, it was a, it was a, there was a point where I had to invest 10 or $15,000 or something in like that. But you know, I said, well, well, you know, if I blow that then you know, we can make it up. My wife's a lawyer, I'm a physio, like we can, we can, no worries. I don't wanna die wondering. Um, I think that the next thing is is that, you know, particularly for physios, if they've got a business thing, is that everyone, you don't know what you don't know. And when you, when you're talking about stuff like marketing operations, financial management, all this kind of stuff, like it is, it is a foreign language just as much as we are talking about, you know, SuperSPIN artists and you know, all the medical terms, like when you get into business speaking and try and understand channel when you're trying to understand, you know, um, return on advertising spending and what's good and what's not. It's, it's a completely different game. So if you're gonna go into business with anyone else, go into business with someone who's got complimentary skills, and I've seen this all the time in physios, they're generally like physios going into business with physios and it's like they've all, they all sing and start from the same hymn book, but they don't bring complimentary skills. So I think that that's, um, really important. Be really clear on your goals, you know, like, and I, I have to say that I changed my goals because my goals, like with Prem Max was for it to be a, a very healthy lifestyle business and I achieved that. Then you get to reach that, the top of that mountain, then you kind of go, hmm, what's next? Um, but you know, for, uh, it, it, you see a lot of conflict where some people think that Apple or Nike and other people just want that to be that lifestyle business as well. So if you're going into business, whether it's just by yourself or whether you're going in with others, I think it's really important that you, you're crystal clear on what you're trying to achieve. So there's no conflict there. And I think the last thing, and it's probably the most important is that, you know, the world has got so much stuff. So if you're actually looking at doing something that's, you know, whether it's a digital product or whether it's, you know, like a physical product, like I've got for instance, you the only way that business will cut through if it's unique and different and needed, it needs to be something that's needed. So, um, that's where, you know, research kind of comes into it as well. Um, you need to understand, you need to do, um, analysis with the market to to, to realize whether this is gonna fly or not. And if you, if it's a product that you can start off small and it cost you a couple of thousand dollars and you can continue to scale it, that's great. But if it's a digital product, you wanna do an app or something like that, for instance, and it's gonna cost you a hundred thousand dollars to kind of do it, you know, like you really need to understand that, you know, like you've got a really, a really good shot of that working, um, you know, before you invest that kind of money. So it's not easy to start a business. Most of 'em fail. Um, but yeah, it's, if you get it right, it can be unbelievably rewarding on a lot of levels. Man. Cheers Randall. Well thanks for that because then Nick, you know, insights from the call faces, you might say. Yeah. With your day being so, well, not, not with your day, but with your, I guess with the mini fingers that you have in different pies, like how is your average day spent? I don't, Doug, I don't have a typical day. That's the thing is, um, that, that's both good and bad. Um, because, you know, particularly with, you know, pre max and we can talk, talk about the learn physio thing as well, is these things progress. Um, and the, the things that I was doing five or six years ago, like, you know, if it, if it, you know, you look back to when it was a lifestyle business, like I was literally just taping boxes and, and sending it outta my garage. Um, and, um, you know, I'd spend 80% of my time, I mean, even I used to put the boxes of cream in the back of my car and drive 'em to the, you know, drive 'em to the wholesalers for them to go and sell. And that was the majority of my time now. Like I'm managing my staff, I'm raising capital for the next investment round. I'm, um, meeting recruiters, you know, to, to kind of get to hire the next kind talent. Um, uh, you know, it, and, and that will change again, you know, another year down the track. Like I'll, I'll do more of that unfortunately. Um, you know, like there's, the thing I miss about physio and, and seeing a list all day every day is that there's very clear like ti times where you start and finish, you see your first patient at nine o'clock, you see your last patient at six o'clock, um, you go home and you can switch off about it knowing that you've got a list to do tomorrow. But for me, these things, these issues like a continual, um, and never ending. So you, it's, it's, you find that it's, you see those, you know, those business WANs for a bit, <laugh>, they're always on the phone or, you know, typing emails and whatever. And that's kind of me, unfortunately at this stage. So I'm hoping that, you know, like as, um, you know, I, I progress that I do less of sitting in front of a computer and less time talking on a phone. Um, and more time spent with people. So are the people that you're spending time with, are they clients or, we just have moved off the complete treatment paradigm altogether now. Uh, I, at this stage, I haven't treated like a live patient for a couple of years. I was, uh, up until the start of Covid I was, I was doing a, a few sessions kind of at the clinic, um, hanging in there. And then when Covid came along, um, I thought, um, the other practitioners are, are really gonna, you know, like, there's not gonna be much work. Everyone's going, um, shut up shop and stay home. And so I, I said, listen, I'll, I'll just, just, uh, I'll, I'll leave my sessions for the for now. And then I kind of got two years later and I hadn't gone back. I just, I've been kind of so busy, um, that I haven't been doing that. But with the, with the learned off physio thing that, um, I'm doing with Nick Hughes, um, that's a wonderful outlet, you know, for me to stay current and up to date with, um, what's happening kind of like, um, in sports and musculoskeletal medicine, um, you know, we're putting courses and stuff online, pretty much all of them. I'll sit in, I'll work with the presenters to talk about their content, what's in there. I've got a, um, a honoree position at Latrobe, um, at Lason, at the Latrobe Sport and Exercise, um, medicine Research Center. So, you know, I'm part of that and, and talking research and and whatnot there. But, um, I haven't, I haven't put my hands live on a patient for a while now. Mm-hmm. The 200 bucks or less, what's the best book or app or tool or there other investment you've found helped you with your clinical development? I'd have to say it's clinical sports medicine, uh, the, the textbook. Uh, I know that there's some cool apps out there and, you know, it's, it's a little bit different for the younger practitioners now. But, you know, when I, when I was cutting my teeth and, uh, early days, I remember vividly so many times that I'd have a patient, I have knee injury or ankle injury, wasn't a hundred percent sure what it was. I, I'd, I'd excuse myself and I'd rapidly go into my broom and, and read through, you know, like, okay, that, that, that and that, okay, I think this is what it is, these are the treatments and I'd rush back out to my patient <laugh>. And, um, it's quite like, I think I know what we're dealing with. So I found that book, uh, enormously useful. Um, it's still updated, it's still current and, um, I think that anyone who's, who's in into sport and exercise medicine should still have that book kind of on their table. Yeah, yeah. Agreed. What's, what would you say is the hardest lesson you learnt as a physiotherapist? Uh, that's hard. Um, I think that, um, I think that, I think the lesson I learned was that your career and particularly like at a, at a smaller level, like your patient list is totally up to you. Um, and it's not for anyone else to shape it. And I think that the hard lesson that I learned was, was that when I worked with this small private practice in Brighton, I just kind of picked up the pieces there for like the year or two that I was there. You know, I worked from five to late, everyone those in those days, you know, everyone came in five guide. I found it reasonably easy to kind of get new patients. Um, and because it was a suburban clinic, um, and with a good reputation, like, um, it, it was busy enough, I got enough patients when I went and started working at Olympic Park, um, I went to, I then went to do it basically full-time. And the payment system structure was just a commission structure at that stage. And I thought, this is the Olympic Park, this is the most famous sports medicine center and all of Melbourne, you know, if not Australia, and surely I'm just a walk up start to have a full list because everyone's clamoring to get into this place. And I was, I think the first week I had like four patients and then the second week I had five, and then the third week I had three, and then the fourth week I had nine or something along those lines. And they were just filling ins for other people. And it got two or three months down the track and I still wasn't busy. I was probably only 20% full. And the realization hit me hard is that if I'm gonna create this list and I'm gonna create myself as a, like a, as a practitioner who's the go-to guy, I've gotta do it. I've gotta do it myself. Like this isn't just gonna happen. I could go out and go back out to another suburban clinic and see backs and necks all day and whatever and be reasonably full, but that's not what I wanted to do with my career. So it was a really hard lesson. And, you know, I was at a hard lesson financially because I went from, you know, as I said before, I had a full-time job at the hospital. I had, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, um, and Saturday morning to the private practice. And then I went from that to zero basically, you know, and, and it took a while and it took me a full year, um, if not more, to kind of build that patient list up. But then I suppose that's, that was the benefit of what I, I felt that at that point, because I'd developed that specialty in, because I had built myself as the go-to guy, not the clinic. It's like I felt very powerful that I could, no matter where I went in Melbourne, people would follow me at that point and I'd have, my referring practitioners would still refer to me. My current patients would still refer and talk to more, more about me than the clinic. And I, and I felt that at that point, like I'm glad that I did it tough. It was a tough lesson. Um, but it was the, it was a valuable and worthwhile one too. So what you're saying is that after two or three months at Olympic Park, you realized, or you weren't aware, that coming there you wouldn't have any patients, so you then had to go out and do some particular types of marking exercises to develop that list and that referral base. I completely had to build my own list. Yep. Yeah. That's a, that's a really important point. So I think it's, whilst it's nice to have the support of the clinic, it's also important to realize that you're actually developing yourself and your list and you as the professional for that particular type of service that you're providing. It's interesting, you still had to do an Olympic part though. Cause I like you, I would've thought you'd walk into a, a pretty busy environment where they were looking to have somebody fill that sort of spot. Well, you did, but at, at the same time, like there was a lot of great physios in there who had their niches. So, you know, if it was a, it was a, if it was a neck injury, um, the receptionist and the lot of the referring doctors and practitioners would send it to the person who specializes in necks. Yeah. And the same went for hips and lower backs and whatever. So basically without kind of like that special interest, um, you were there just for the scraps, essentially. <laugh>, that's wrong way. I shouldn't have said that <laugh>. But you, you were there for, you were there for people who, um, didn't need specialty treatment. Um, and um, it's either yeah, kind of fight or flight basically. And so I fought and, and, um, yeah. What sort of three things in your professional life career highlights? Uh, the first one is going to Olympic games as a physio. Um, I, I love the sport of skiing. I was obsessed with kind of being a, an Olympic physio, something I really wanted to do. I'm gonna show my age here, but you know, like I'd, I'd started working for, you know, the, the, the national team, uh, must have been about 98, 99. And then the 2002 Winter Olympics were at Salt Lake City. And I thought that I was a really good chance of going to that Olympics and I missed it. I didn't get it. They, they took three, four other physios. Uh, I was dejected. Um, Elisa Camplin was a friend of mine, um, and a patient and I watched her win the gold medal, kind of like on tv. So I, I found that both, um, unbelievably great, but sad at the same time that I wasn't there. So to then, um, go and actually then be to kind of just work at it and keep doing it and be there for another four years and get to the 2006 Winter Olympics and be there, um, was, was enormous for me. I felt really proud. I, I was lucky enough to walk in the opening ceremony with the, with the team. Yeah. And, um, so that was a, a massive moment for me. The second, um, one is passing specialization and even though, you know, I told the story that it was a will win kind of six months. Um, I just, it was, it was very satisfying kind of getting the letter in the mail saying that he had passed. Cuz I think it was only like a 50 or 60% pass rate at that stage. And I had so much respect for everyone else that was kind of doing it. So to kind of get, um, passed that Rob Whiteley was my, um, uh, was my, uh, examiner. So he's not easy to get past. And um, so I I I found that kind of super, um, uh, super great as well. And this one, I hope you don't find this too corny, Doug, but, um, the, the last thing that you know, I've probably found most satisfying in my MyCare is when I've had patients, um, at the end, particularly cuz I see them with a c l rehab for instance, for a long time, is when they give you a heartfelt thank you and look you in the eyes and said, you've made a big difference to my life. Like, it, it's something that, you know, like even now that I'm focusing on more business stuff, like you just don't get that. And, you know, I go back to my story of like how I felt like when health professionals helped me, when I had my problems when I was 16 and 17, and my passion and my drive was to, to try and do that for others. And in, and achieving that and seeing that and seeing them kind of either give you a bottle of wine or it's, you know, you've had some of them cry saying, you've just made such an impact on my life is a dream come true. You know, it's, it's been awesome. So they're the three things. I don't find that corny at all. I think that you, you know, you, you hit the nail on the head. You said physios, we came on air, are basically altruistic people that perhaps get caught up and they don't realize that you have to have that compassion and passion, but you also have to have the business sense, um, to survive as a physiotherapist, because if you're not, they're essentially making a profit in your business. You can't provide the, the compassion and the passion to help people. So that's right. I think that third one is, is, is critical. Cause if you don't have that, if you don't enjoy that hug from the 85 year old lady that's, you know, able to walk with the grandkids again, or you don't enjoy getting that little slice of chocolate cake from a, a teenager that's just un home nick and they're able to play the game of basketball Grand Final, I think those are the things that, well, for me, and that may be, maybe I'm corny as well, but I, I think that's what really makes the profession that we are today. Agreed. And. And probably all the way through. Hey, um, if you could get an old time machine and travel back in time to yourself when you're just starting out as a physio, would there be any bits of advice that you'd pass on to yourself now that you know what you do know? Yeah, I think the, probably the first one I'd say to my younger self and also younger physios is, um, is first of all, be patient. You know, good things take time. I remember, um, uh, I was, you probably picked up that I was super keen when I was young physio to kinda cut my teeth <laugh> and I, I think I was, I was probably about a year or kinda 18 months out. Um, and I'd already done the level one sports physio course and I managed to snag, um, a spot, um, up in Sydney for the Level two Sports Physio course. And I recognized about, you know, like I said, about 12 or 18 months. Yeah. And I did, I was so excited to go there. It was five day Li Living course up at Nwi up in nabe. And I, I remember there that when I did the course, I regretted it, believe it or not. And the reason I regretted it is um, a brick in the face. It's like, I'm not ready. Like, because, you know, every single presenter that got up there would say, you know, when you kind of get these difficult patients to do this, this and this, and everyone would kind of nod their head and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I get that. It's like, I haven't seen any of those, you know? And then, um, they'll talk about, yeah, and you, everyone remembers this study, this study and this study, you know, that it was kind of like, I don't remember those. So I, I wasted that course. I wasted it because like I was just too impatient to kind of try to get to where I was going. And, you know, it wasn't the money really, it was just the opportunity that of, of actually learning from those great practitioners at that point. So I think that experience counts for so much, and I'd encourage like my, my younger self and anyone young to, to to be patient and to, to kind of take time to, to kind of build your skills. The second is, um, is I recommend to myself, um, and also others, is to build your personal skills as much as your clinical skills and the soft skills. You know, particularly kind of like everyone at Olympic Park, you know, when I was there was, was an excellent practitioner, but not everyone was full. And the, the reason I think the thing that I, I recognized reasonably quickly is that the, the, the practitioners that were most full usually were the most caring and the most likable and the best people, people, and they were able to kind of interact with their patients best. They're able to reassure them well, they were out, explain things well. Um, and I think that that's such a massive skill in what we do. We spend a lot of time with our patients and, um, if you can't articulate your message and make them feel warm, trusting, um, and completely kind of, um, uh, um, confident in in, in your ability and what you're telling them, um, then you're wasting kind of everything else you're doing. So I think your personal skills are as important as your clinical ones. And then I think the last one is, and we touched on this kind of, you know, before we kind of turn the um, um, uh, the recording on, but we see, so I see so many kind of young physios that get about 3, 4, 5 years into their career and they get really flat and they just feel like there's, there's no way forward. You know, it's like, I just don't wanna keep seeing 50 hours of patients week in, week out. Where am I gonna go? And we see them kind of bail and go up and do other things. I think that my advice is you need to actively think about putting yourself into a position of progression and growth. You need to kind of make sure that you, where you are is not in a position of dead end and it's not necessarily where you work. I think it's also about a mindset that, you know, it's like, am I gonna go and do you know my master's degree then when I've got my master's degree, what kind of things do I want? Do you know, do I wanna work in sports? If so, like how am I gonna get that job with the VFL team? How am I gonna, you know, um, then work my way up to afl. I wanna do research. How am I gonna do that? Um, I wanna own my practice and own my practice one day. How am I gonna do that? And I think that, you know, like so much focus, um, comes on just, uh, management of a patient and your clinical effectiveness and not so much about personal growth and, and building yourself up. And it's very different in the business world for instance, that there's just a very clear trajectory and ladder, like in the corporate world, that it's easy for people to do. It's, it's more difficult kind of in health and particularly in physio and particularly in private practice. So I think I'd really encourage, like my younger self, I think I did it well actually, but for, for for other younger physios is, is to make sure you don't feel, put yourself into a dead end and that you're in a position where you can grow and progress. Yeah. So essentially you're saying, I'm doing this because like it's fulfilling a particular goal. It might be to gain clinical skills in a particular area. It might be to develop your business at Gomen because you're doing a course, or it might be working on a particular mentor that has a particular skill that you want to develop as well. So, and I think that by having a goal, like if you're articulating to yourself, you've got a goal and that you're working towards it, that tells your brain that you are moving forward. Like, but if you don't have a goal, you don't have a map, well you're gonna get lost anyway. So I think that that final point, it might sound exceptionally mature for young physio to be considering, but it essentially means you are going to be moving forward in your own mind with what you're doing. If you're moving forward, you're gonna be enjoying it. It's, I think, like you say, if you get into position, you feel you've got no lateral movement, you can't go out, can't go down, and you're stuck. Even that mental cognition of being at a dead end, it's pretty down, it's pretty hard if your brain to accept that and to keep excited about being therapeutically positive for your patients as well. I agree. There are some unique, I should say though, there's, there are some unique individuals out there that are just happy to see a full list of patients week in, week out and they get a lot of sat satisfaction from little bit earlier and just helping people and they can very content doing that. If that's you, then great. Like you don't, you know, like if you're happy with that and you're gonna be happy doing that for the next 10, 20 years or whatever. Awesome. Cuz there are those people out there. But I, my my experience is most people aren't, most people do want to continue to grow and progress and physios generally are very smart people. Um, and you know, kind of feeling like you're in a rut, um, can make you feel pretty lousy. Yeah. And I think just as, as a bit of a plug with physio plus 10, I think if you listen to the interviews you'll get the sensation that there are many ways to grow. Like, you know, whether it be in your own clinical development, in, you know, doing some research, joining professional association, um, becoming more involved in your community through health education and awareness, developing a product. Like there are lots of things that you can add to your current knowledge that can stimulate your brain. And it's interesting that we get to one thing and then that leads to another too. So I think if you have got that forward looking progression, like I as an individual wanna improve in some way, there are many ways you can do it. It doesn't have to be a, you know, like academically or financially, but there are many ways you can develop yourself and make your, you know, professional life a lot more exciting as well. Yeah. Hey. A couple more questions before we wrap. One is like, what would you like to see our profession do become or go as far as in the next few years? Uh, I think that, you know, I think that over the last 20 years, you know, physiotherapy has done an outstanding job of of, of um, applying research and ev evidence-based practice to like the way we do what we do and the way we do things. And I think that that really differentiates us from a health professions. So I think that this will just continue to kind of, you know, like progress and, and be increasingly more important if it's not that already at the moment. So, um, that, that's kind of one I got. I also think that, you know, like physio generally needs to, uh, kind of expand its scope and I know like the APA is, you know, talking about extended scope, it's hasn't really kind of cut through a lot, but if you look at over in the UK for instance, you know, some physios can do injections and you know, like I think that there's a role for physios to, you know, um, be able to image more to prescribe certain drug drugs like the, um, you know, like the podiatrists do for instance possibly do kind of injections of either local anesthetic cor cortisone to take the pressure off medical system. I think we've seen over covid that, you know, like it's just under the pump and you just can't get the c GPS is what you must do. And I think physio has got a, a really, um, great base for people to learn and progress more. And I think that ties into some of that stuff where, you know, we're talking about, you know, progression, career progression as well, that if this is something that's kind of made a ma major stream pathway, then you can continue to progress yourself not only by being a specialist or for instance, but also kind of extended scope kind of work as well. Um, I think they're the main ones that I thought about. Um, I think that, I think the last thing also, and it kind of ties into, you know, what we spoke about before is, you know, sometimes it's not only about just, you know, like people not progressing kind of through their career for um, uh, kind of fulfillment and um, uh, career progression, but also financial progression as well. And I, I'd really like to, to kind of see particularly in the private practice market, that if we can get that cohort of more people who don't kind of bail out of the profession when they do get four, five years out, we've got a lot more people who are 20, 25 years out and they're rewarded for that financially. And we've kind of got the courage as a professional group to, to kind of charge a little bit more and to, and to make sure there is a financially rewarding career for clinicians as well. I think that we'll see that the entire profession lift because of it, because we'll have a more experienced workforce. Um, it's uncanny how many physios just don't want to kind of talk about money or, you know, fees and, um, and their, their time for effort and this type of thing. Um, but it's an important consideration cuz every other professional group is, isn't shy about it, but for some reason ours is. So I'd really like to see that conversation about pay, um, and financial reward for being awesome at what you do. Um, kind of come more to the forefront. Yeah. Do you have any ideas on how that could, could occur? Uh, well, no, like, I mean, I<laugh> when I say no, like I, I'd probably need to qualify, but I've given this some thought and I give it a lot of thought because, uh, some thought because, you know, like I, I see it that when it comes to like the, the solution behind it, uh, I I think that, you know, I, I'd probably need to understand a a lot more about, um, the governing bodies and, and, and the influence that they have and, and that kind of thing. But I think generally, and I'm starting to see it now, kind of like in in the Melbourne, um, that people are starting to charge more for their service, um, and more for their services. A as for experience as well. And the clinics that essentially, you know, got a tiered kind of, um, payment. You know, that if you're a graduate physio, this is the fee. If you've got a master's degree, this is the fee. If you're a specialist, this is the fee. If you're a guru, <laugh> for a better word, this is the fee. And you know, it's no different to law, to accounting to any other professional group. We've just been shy about it that just physios a commodity and that, you know, like every session should be the same, but it shouldn't and people should charge for their expertise. So I think it's happening, it's happening too slow, but I think that those people who are doing it well should probably start to, you know, encourage more others to do it properly. Yeah, I think there's almost like a, a tipping point cuz as you say, every other profession does do it. And when you go and see the, the partner of a law firm, you know, you're gonna be paying 800 bucks an hour and you know, if you're gonna see the junior or the receptionist, you're just gonna be paying a couple hundred bucks an hour and that's, you don't like it, but you know, that's the structure because you're paying for experience and qualifications. And it, it does seem almost retro sly bizarre that you have a specialist that's charging as much as a new grad because they say, well, people don't value my skill and they'll go to the new grad. And I think that we as a profession need to educate our clients quite openly to say, well, this is why I am charging more. Um, because unless we take that, you know, bull by the horns and explain it like we do with explaining persistent pain or why tendon takes three months, 600 days or whatever it is to, um, get to a point of maturity, say 300 days, we are not, we're not doing our job. And I think explaining why we charge what we charge is also part of that important process of educating the public about the services that we provide. If we are not confident in ourselves, will, they certainly aren't gonna be confident about that. I think also that, you know, like it, it that a tiered kind of structure and also a tiered approach to patient management in clinics of a certain size is something that we should look to as well. So if you look at, if you use the law example, it's like, yeah, you got your QC or your SC or whatever that will charge you a thousand dollars an hour, but they'll say, listen, I'm only gonna do six hours of work, whereas I'm gonna get the grunt work done by my associate who's only $350 an hour. Right? And it's like, but you feel okay, you still, from a consumer's point of view or a patient's point of view, you still feel like, okay, the guy, the expert is still caring for me, is looking after me. Um, but the person who's kind of doing most of the day-to-day work, um, is charging me less fee. And I feel good for that because I'm getting the best of both worlds and financially it's not so bad, but I'm still getting expertise. And I think that when you think about, you know, the management of a difficult patient, for instance, um, like in a clinic, that that model could be the same if you've got a specialist, for instance, who sees them once a month and then you've got a, um, a new grad or someone who's just doing their masters who, you know, kind of supervises and, and progresses the rehab program and then works in kind of like with the, like more of a mentor situation as well. It's great for the patient, that's great for the younger therapist. It's, and it's, and it's, it's good for the, you know, for the experience, you know, physio, that they're not just doing the, the meat and potato work that they've done for 20 or 25 years. Yeah. Yeah. And look, just finishing off for yourself, where do you see yourself, what are your big focuses, you know, your goals for the next few years? Oh, I think I've, you know, I'm just really kind of happy and busy, kind of, you know, just building my businesses up and it's not only just, you know, financial, just want more money and, and, and more revenue. It's also about, you know, doing it better. The world's changing really fast, so you've kind of gotta keep up there. Um, I think though that, you know, like I've, you know, I graduated in 96, so you know, I'm only a few way, a few years away from being out for 30 years. And I think that, you know, like I see it in my, in myself, the transition where I've still got some things that I want to achieve personally and I've got some career goals and things that I'd like to do. But I also feel like, you know, the, the time's kind of coming where I'm starting to give back more, you know, and I'd really like to think that, you know, like I'm, I mentor more for the staff that work for me than I'm there to help and assist and, and, and be there for them as rather than just kinda worrying about myself. So, you know, it's kind of giving back and that, that includes clinically, that includes business level on all sorts of things. So I think that for the, over the next 10, 15, 20 years, I'll still work hard, but a lot of that will kind of be starting to mentor that next generation. Great. Well, all the best with all that Randall. And thanks very much for spending some time on Physio plus 10 and sharing, you know, a bunch of your insights along the clinical and the entrepreneurial and uh, the mentoring sides of the things that you're doing. It, it's been, it's been, it's been really good. So thank you very much. I think, um, your podcast, this just, uh, terrific. Uh, Doug, I think that, you know, like the, the tone that you're setting with it is, is really good. Cause I think these are important issues to kind of discuss and, um, you know, good luck with everything that you do too. Thanks very much man. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Physio plus 10 in which I trust you gain some valuable insights. It'd be awesome if you could leave your 2 cents worth as a review or rating of this podcast now. I look forward to sharing the story of another trailblazing physiotherapist with you in two weeks time. Stay safe. Bye for hour.